Natasha Levy: 0:07

Welcome to we Can Solve this, a podcast where we break down issues and provide solutions based on research and best practices. We hope that the ideas shared here help build thriving communities wherever you are. Today's guest is Jeanette Calder, and I'm really looking forward to the conversation with her today. Jeanette is fully engaged in civil society advocacy for better public governance. She has been reliably vocal on governance issues, in particular, those related to procurement, corruption and public sector reform. She has conceptualized and founded JAMP, which is Jamaica Accountability Meter Portal, following her experience as researcher into six years of Auditor General reports and the resulting findings and recommendations, as well as being a researcher and writer of the Citizen's Guide to Better Understanding of the National Budget. Today we're going to be delving into voter and voting behaviour. Welcome, Jeanette, how are you today?

Jeanette Calder: 1:14

I'm doing good, Natasha, and it's even better being here with you.

Natasha Levy: 1:17

Fantastic. So let's start at the very beginning. What exactly is the Jamaica Accountability Meter Portal? That sounds like a big title. What is it exactly that the Accountability Meter Portal does?

Jeanette Calder: 1:31

Well, if it's a, it sounds like a big title. That's good, because it's something that wants and intends to make a big impact.

Natasha Levy: 1:38

I love that Big title for big impact.

Jeanette Calder: 1:40

Absolutely Okay. But, in short, it is a website that houses what we would call digital tools, and I always say to people, a tool is really there to help you to do something you could do, but to do it easily and to do it probably more quickly and efficiently. So it's a tool that was designed by citizens. These are tools designed by citizens predominantly with other citizens in mind, right, but these are tools that we have found have been used now by development agencies, government and parliament.

Jeanette Calder: 2:15

Now, when we created them, we were thinking about citizens who had an interest in their country, wanted to get involved, but were missing two major things. Okay, and I need to know about it. So information is one of the key things that we provide. And then the second thing is there is no point in giving citizens information but then they can't access the people who make the decisions or who can create change around the things that are important to them. So the second thing about that website is that it gives you access to powerful people in your country who make decisions on your behalf, the people in the parliament who are powerful, and the people in the government who are powerful. And we can get into it a little further what those six tools are, but it is currently six and by the time the year is out we would have eight.

Natasha Levy: 3:22

So let's get this out of the way really quickly.

Jeanette Calder: 3:24

Sure.

Natasha Levy: 3:25

Where can I find the accountability portal?

Jeanette Calder: 3:27

It's located at the usual wwwjampjaorg, not com. Everybody does the com and misses it. Org stands for organization, right, so it's wwwjamp, which is J-A-M-P, j-a, dot, o-r-g.

Natasha Levy: 3:49

All right, so we've gotten that out the way. So, JAMP is this repository of information? It's information about what's happening in my country.

Jeanette Calder: 3:58

Correct.

Natasha Levy: 3:59

And then it's also a repository of how do I find really important people. Why would I need to have a repository of this type of information?

Jeanette Calder: 4:08

Well, there are some. I like to think of it in the sense of keeping it real and simplifying it for people. And when we think about our homes, our homes are governed in a particular way. It simply means, when we use the word governed, it mean decisions are made in our homes in a particular way, and it is different depending on the household. But each household, even though you don't write it down and even though you don't say this, is the constitution of the called household there is a way of making decisions and there's also an established role and responsibility for different people in that household.

Jeanette Calder: 4:45

It's the same with government. Government makes decisions in certain ways and different countries have different ways of doing it and different people who are responsible. But those decisions, just like in a household, they affect me directly. And so in a country, just like in a household, I want to have some say over the decisions that impact my life, and so the kind of information that JAMP wants to provide there is information that's directly related to how you live your life and business, or any dream that you have. The extent to which you can realize that dream is going to be dependent on how parliament makes decisions and how the government makes decisions. So when I hear that and I come into this world and I have dreams and I have ideas and I want to live here, then I certainly would like to know that I can impact and influence and encourage and help the persons who are making those decisions that affect my life. And that's what that portal is. It's an answer for citizens who have long wanted to get involved, have an interest but don't know how. All right?

Natasha Levy: 5:57

Well, let's break it down. So there's information on the site and clearly it's information that you believe is important for citizens to have access to if they want to be an active participant in their country, right? What is the information that's available on the?

Jeanette Calder: 6:15

site. Okay, so I could start with the one that I started with. It probably is not the one I would call the most basic, but back in 2014, some of your listeners would remember the story of Outameni and Outameni. Do you remember it, natasha? By any chance, let me just check.

Natasha Levy: 6:36

So when you talk about Outameni, perhaps we can give the listener some context. So, 2014, what was Otameni?

Jeanette Calder: 6:44

Well, Outameni is a property in Trelawny. It was a tourism facility that was owned by a businessman and that business ran into difficulty and the government of Jamaica, through the National Housing Trust, decided to buy this business. The difficulty that Jamaicans had is the National Housing Trust has a mandate to deliver housing to the Jamaican people, and at that time I can recall there was a Gleaner article that spoke to the fact that almost a third of Jamaica's population were squatting. So you have a scenario where people need housing. You have a government institution whose mandate is to provide housing and they're buying a tourism facility.

Jeanette Calder: 7:31

So for a lot of Jamaicans, myself included I'm an architect by training, I worked in the Ministry of Housing, I've worked with squatters it was deeply offensive to me and many Jamaicans that we would have used $180 million to purchase a tourism facility rather than investing it in providing housing. So for a long past what we call in Jamaica the nine days, people protested, they called the call-in shows, they wrote and when I said people, you think of any category of society, from the private sector, the chamber of commerce, to the church, to civil society and the government held a firm. But eventually there came this young lady called Jeanette Calder who decided to mount a protest.

Natasha Levy: 8:12

Would that young lady be you?

Jeanette Calder: 8:16

And I was away. You know, I was back in the Netherlands for the whole three months of this debate in Jamaica watching it, but the minute I hit the shores, I decided what we need, folks, is to hit the pavement of Jamaica, stand in front of the NHT and let the government know that the board of the NHT had to resign for making a decision like that. Well, I tell you the truth, to my shock, after standing there for two days, the prime minister decided that they would not reappoint the members of the board whose appointment would have been up in a couple of months, and I felt that that was some kind of just you know Citizen action, absolutely. So I learned two things that day. I learned one this is how a democracy works. You don't have your prime minister on speed dial At least I didn't and so citizens have to place their bodies on the street and, with respect, have a conversation through putting how you feel on a piece of paper usually cardboard or cartridge and you hope that the very important arm of society called the media will come and understand that you have something on your heart, and they will amplify your voice so that your leaders can hear and that's a crucial what I just explained a while ago, natasha, is a very crucial and important mechanism of every democracy. We look at protests as a bad thing not me. The only requirement I had that day is that everything that was going to be said has to be done with respect for the prime minister. But why this translates back to jump and why we're here today is that a very important thing happened what I thought was a very powerful institution.

Jeanette Calder: 9:57

As a former public servant, I had a great respect and fear for the Auditor General's department. Right, when you're in government and you hear the Auditor General is coming, man, it's like when you hear daddy coming home and you know you would audit the National Housing Trust and give the people of Jamaica answers. Right, the answer came four months later. But, natasha, by the time the answer came, you know your country and my country. How much things do you think happened in between that four months? A lot of things. A whole heap and many more things just like that. A whole heap and many more things just like that.

Jeanette Calder: 10:45

So when the news, when the report from the Auditor General with the answers that citizens had been bawling three months for, came, there was nothing but silence from Jeanette Calder, who was the citizen at the time, from the opposition who was bawling out against the government, from the media itself, all sectors were dead quiet. We had moved on. But about two months after the report came out, I remembered wasn't there supposed to be this report, googled it and boops, I found it, and it occurred to me that nothing would ever come, such as accountability or consequences, if, when we get the answers, all we do is just absolutely file it away because 10 other 20 other things have happened. That is always going to be the case in Jamaica. So the question on my mind is how do we follow through?

Jeanette Calder: 11:38

Jamaicans would always say what is killing us is the nine- day wonder. So I listened to what the Jamaican people were saying, and so the question, Natasha, is how do we get beyond nine days? Because for three months, way beyond the nine days, the people of Jamaica did what a democracy requires. However, they could hold on much more beyond that, because other things came up.

Jeanette Calder: 12:01

Because other things came up. So Jamf that portal. One of the first tools we created is called the Accountometer. So what we do as citizens is that we get the reports from the oversight agencies that look out for our funds and our assets and whether or not our funds and the things that we own as the public, whether they are being abused. These reports come out from time to time Auditor General, integrity Commission, moca, financial Investigation Division but the average citizen does not have time to sit down and read that, natasha, and then figure what, check and see where things are now.

Jeanette Calder: 12:36

So JAMP decided we would stand in the gap. We will read these reports, we will document them on this website and we will use an extremely important legislation that I never knew about up to 10 years ago, called the access to information legislation. We use that legislation that gives the citizens of Jamaica everybody, not just media, not just civil society organizations but every citizen has the right to write to the government on any governance concern and ask them any question they want, and they must get an answer within 30 days and, truth be told, if they're having a problem they can get an extension of another 30. So I get bright, you know, I learned about this thing now, Natasha, and I say well, I want to know what has the government Outameni about , since we get this report. So I say I'm going to use it, I write the permanent secretary and I say PS, under this access to information legislation, please tell me what happened, permanent secretary. I want to know what steps have you taken to remedy this problem.

Jeanette Calder: 13:45

I wasn't sure I was going to get any answer, but, Natasha, guess what? I got an answer. I said but wait, does this thing work? And when I got the answer, I found out that there were three things that the Auditor General recommended that the Office of the Prime Minister do to fix the problem. And guess what they were done. So I found out another thing that, wait, things do get fixed in Jamaica, but I never know that. And that simple idea birthed what we call the accountometer, which was one of the first tools on JAMP that we as citizens would use the power that the parliament has given us to write to any institution except the governor general's office. But we will come to that.

Natasha Levy: 14:26

So what else can I find on JAMP? So aside from the account meter?

Jeanette Calder: 14:32

We also think that fundamental to any citizen being engaged in what we call your business is knowing how the money go. How the money go how the money go. So we have digitized the national budget. The national budget is about a thousand pages of a 10 or 20 pound document that most citizens can't read, and so we make it very easy for you now to go to JAM's website. Let's say, Natasha, you want to find out how much government spending on cell phone bills this year to come.

Jeanette Calder: 15:02

Something as granular as that we can find out as granular, and I like the fact that you use the word granular, because prior to JAMP and prior to this tool, no citizen could access that information.

Jeanette Calder: 15:12

But commendation has to be given to the Ministry of Finance, because the only way we would have it is if the Ministry of Finance was willing to give it to us, and so, thanks to the ministry, we created a tool that makes it very simple. You go to that website and you can just simply plug in down to the word cow and you will find out. I wish your listeners could see your face a while ago. You could see how much is the government going to spend on cows, and that might sound weird, but if you're a farmer or better yet, if you sell cows, you would want to know how much the government plans to buy. So so what you can get ready to provide the government, since they want to invest so much in codes for the next 12 years I mean, sorry, 12 months. So it's a basic tool that helps citizens to understand how their government is spending and on what so we've got the account meter, the digital version of the budget tracker.

Natasha Levy: 16:08

And you mentioned that there were six. What are the other four? The?

Jeanette Calder: 16:10

The other one is the Member of Parliament (MP) tracker, which tends to be the favourite and the most used by citizens. There is no other place in Jamaica where you can go and find out how do I contact my Member of Parliament (MP), and in 2024, Natasha. That is a disgrace. We hire them, we pay them, but there's no website not on the parliament, not on the GIS, nowhere. So JAMP collected the data when is the constituency office, what are the phone numbers and the emails of our MPs? And that's how we started the Member of Parliament (MP) tracker. But now it houses information about are you attending parliament? Are you going there to represent me? How many meetings are you missing, Member of Parliament (MP)? That puts citizens in the position that when they see the Member of Parliament (MP), they can ask a simple accountability question. Mp Mr So andSo, on JAMP side, said you only got 50% of the time. You couldn't have that conversation easily prior to JAMP's website and I'll just say and a few more things about members of parliament can be found. So it's an Member of Parliament (MP) tracker.

Jeanette Calder: 17:14

The other one is the legislative tracker. We want citizens to understand how the parliament works and the best way to do that is, whenever there is a law that's being passed, we track that bill step by step so that citizens can see the process and understand it. But what I love about that tracker is if there's anybody listening and there's something in the newspaper, something on the news last night that you hear and it burn you and it's half of the Parliament, boy, I hope we reach them people there. You go to JAMP's legislative tracker Natasha and you just slap that big fat envelope that says send a note to Parliament and if you fill it out, the clerk of the parliament will ensure that it gets to whomever you want it to go to down to the prime minister of Jamaica will receive your note, and that's what we mean about giving access to the citizen.

Jeanette Calder: 18:01

The other one is the procurement tracker. We are looking at accountability. We're very serious about the money. We're protecting it. The more we have is, the more Jamaicans we can serve. So the procurement tracker is looking at how much money flows from government to the private sector and where is it going, why? Because the biggest problem with corruption is in that process, in the procurement process. It is anywhere in the world.

Jeanette Calder: 18:29

So we have Jamaica has an amazing database of 14 years of 179,000 contracts, and what JAMP did was to create a tool that makes it very easy for you to find out how many contracts have I ever gotten from government, when and how and how much. And last but by no means least, one of my favorite is I started out by telling you about the access to information tool. Any citizen listening to me would have said that sounds good, ms Calder, but how may I find out how to use that and if I want to talk to the NAA, who may send it to? We have made that easy by creating an access to information tool. You just need to know which entity you need to get a question to you select that entity, put in your question on your email boops, you let it fly, they get it in whichever office you needed it to go to and they will reply.

Natasha Levy: 19:19

So, Jeanette, this all seems to be a very good tool for persons to examine governance and, you know, a way in which that they can amplify their participation in terms of what's happening in their country. I want to use that as a pivot point and, if we could segue into voting support for books or other publications.

Break : 19:48

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Natasha Levy: 19:58

I want to get your thoughts on what has been the voting participation been like in Jamaica, because you talk about. Here's a way for people to participate if they have access to this type of information. That's available on the accountability meter portal, but a very simple way in which we can participate is by voting. What's been your experience with the voting habits and patterns of people in Jamaica?

Jeanette Calder: 20:29

Well, it hasn't been good in recent years. I don't have full sum data, but just to give you an idea, the last I have it on the Electoral Commission of Jamaica's website and it has reported that in the last, let's say, the local government elections we just had, we only had 29.6% of Jamaicans turning out, 29.6% of the voting population 29.6% of the voting population.

Jeanette Calder: 20:53

Correct, which is a little over 2 million right, and in 2016, they said it was 30. That was the last time we had local government. I don't think it's very different for general elections A little bit better, I think, at the most about 36% it gets now. But if you compare that to where we're coming from, a couple of years back we were up to, I believe, 80% when we just started having an opportunity to vote. 80% of the country would turn out we're talking about from 1944, when we started getting the vote, to about 1962. We're all the way down into the 30s now, natasha.

Natasha Levy: 21:32

What do you think accounts for that?

Jeanette Calder: 21:35

There are lots of things, but a Gleaner article that I read recently said one. It has to do with the matter of trust. Very high on the list of Jamaicans. When you know, most of us have heard about Don Anderson.

Natasha Levy: 21:48

Yes.

Jeanette Calder: 21:49

When you check out the Don Anderson polls, they have indicated that it's a matter of trust. Not trusting politicians is one. Not feeling as if by voting it makes any difference to the quality of their lives is another. And some folks believe it or not actually say they see no difference between one party and another. So what is the point? So if you don't think you can change anything, natasha, if you think if I vote left or right, north or south, it's the same result, why would you decide to go and vote?

Jeanette Calder: 22:23

If you don't believe that the political parties are there contemplating your best interests? But rather you believe I'm not saying this is true you believe that the reason you are a politician is to put your interests first and your party's interests first and your pocket first. Why am I going there? To serve you? So those have been some of the main reasons A lack of trust, conviction that it doesn't make a difference and the conviction that they are really there to serve themselves and not to serve us. So why bother? Those are the top reasons that we have gotten.

Natasha Levy: 22:57

Those percentages are very, very telling 29.6%.

Jeanette Calder: 23:04

I'm going to even share some more with you. I have some details here. The Don Anderson polls pointed out that in 1962, details here the Don Anderson polls pointed out that in 1962, wow, we had an on average 81%, so we're coming down from, and in 1990, we had 78%, so we were still doing fairly well, and we have moved all the way down now, yes, the 36%.

Natasha Levy: 23:35

Is there anything? What's the solution to that, do you think, or is that an oversimplification of it?

Jeanette Calder: 23:40

No no.

Natasha Levy: 23:40

Because I mean, you certainly don't, you know, there has to be something fundamentally wrong or inherently wrong if you're moving from a high of 80s all the way down to 29.6% of your voting population.

Jeanette Calder: 23:55

Right. Well, I was going to say to you I'm happy to say that Jamaica is not the only country with that problem.

Jeanette Calder: 24:00

I don't mean that I'm happy, I mean it is showing us that In other democracies this phenomenon is being observed Absolutely.

Jeanette Calder: 24:06

Around the world and for your listeners who might be inclined to do research, there's an amazing study done once every two years called the LAPOP L-A-P-O-P study. It's done by the Vanderbilt University, funded by USAID, and what they measure is how strong are democracies in the Americas? So they're looking at North America, Caribbean, South America in the Americas. So they're looking at North America, caribbean, south America, and that has been the trend right across the Americas. The vast majority have fallen pretty much to where Jamaica is, and many others out of the 20 countries surveyed are worse than we are. Can it be solved? Absolutely yes, in the same way that we had an interest and we were willing to go and vote. It's not that Jamaicans aren't interested, but nobody's interested in participating in something they don't think will make a difference.

Natasha Levy: 24:56

So, Jeanette, I have a question for you. So is voting the only way in which we can participate in the governance of our country?

Jeanette Calder: 25:04

No, not at all, and that's a good thing. I actually believe that the voice at least in Jamaica, I think the voice is more important than the vote. I'm not saying the vote is not important yes, but based on where we are and what's happening in Jamaica, my take on it is that the voice meaning citizens getting engaged and letting their opinions, their concerns, be known in between, the vote is currently more important. It does not mean, however, that voting is not, and let me just say this About 700,000 of us who could vote in the last general election did not vote, and are we not voting for these reasons?

Natasha Levy: 25:48

Trust yes.

Jeanette Calder: 26:02

Voting does make a difference, unable to distinguish between the ideologies of the parties as well. So what I found very interesting about the 2016 elections is that the Jamaica Labour Party was said by those who research and analyse these things, that it was a vote that was won for the party based on the youth vote.

Natasha Levy: 26:23

I remember that conversation.

Jeanette Calder: 26:24

Yes, Now, if you recall, the Jamaica Labour Party won by one seat. Yes. Now, when the analysts dug a little further, they found out that there was a difference in how the political parties approached young people. The Jamaica Labour Party went to the universities and courted them, talked to them. Now, remember, these would be young people who are not yet disenchanted, they haven't yet gone to the booth, voted and not gotten any results and made up their minds.

Jeanette Calder: 26:52

They were the young 18 year olds who were probably first time voters and so they're kind of clean slate to be written on. But the Jamaica Labour Party literally went a young prime minister looking young like them and said look, I'm relatable, I'd listen to you, I'm going to do this for you. And about 10,000 of those votes made the difference for our political party. Now what I'm trying to say is, when a party knows that you are going to vote and you have the capacity to put them in power, they're more inclined to listen to you. So that's something I want people to remember that 700,000 that didn't show up. If you got up tomorrow and said I am going to vote, you are going to get the attention of that party and what that party wants to say to you is that, well, you have something I want, which is a vote, and I have something you want. In my case, it's good governance and good decisions.

Jeanette Calder: 27:44

Now, if you don't get up and say I'm going to vote, why would those who are making decisions be willing to listen to you? I have had members of the political class tell me that if you're not in the line, you don't matter once I'm in. I have heard members who have won said but you never vote, so you can't complain. Now, Quite frankly, Natasha, that's not true. As long as you're paying taxes, you have a right, and every citizen who even buys a phone card is paying taxes. So every citizen has a right to complain, regardless of whether or not they vote. But the point I'm trying to make is you have a better chance of someone listening to your problem and being willing to respond if you are in the line, willing to give them something that they want. So that's just the first basic thing about voting that people need to recognize.

Jeanette Calder: 28:35

The thing about the voice is people don't know how to engage. It's not very easy. So you asked me earlier, outside of voting, what other things can citizens do to get involved in the governance process? And I said the voice. And it sounds easy because you know Jeanette has a voice in Jamaica. So the people listening might say, yeah, man, Jeanette Calder can talk Me. No, have no voice. That's not true. If I may just give some practical examples of why that is not true, I was doing a workshop two weeks ago with some young citizens, all in their 20s, and I asked them how many of you have ever attended a constituency development fund meeting?

Natasha Levy: 29:14

What is that?

Jeanette Calder: 29:15

Exactly, and they said the very same thing which meant the answer was no.

Jeanette Calder: 29:19

But can you imagine that the government of Jamaica says to the people of Jamaica, you can participate in how we spend the money, and particularly in a way that benefits you directly? You say what? Yes, man, each constituency is allocated $20 million a year and the government says we don't decide what happens to that. The constituency does. So the Member of Parliament (MP) is required once every two years to meet with his constituents to decide how are we going to spend this 20 million? Now, you might look at that and think it is something simple, folks, but it is not. It's an extraordinarily powerful place for you to begin to communicate with elected officials to let them know that one you're paying attention to them. Now, Natasha, when somebody knows that you're paying attention to them, do you know that modifies behavior? It does so too, so that you're paying attention to them. So that's the first message. When an Member of Parliament (MP) walks into a CDF meeting and he's used to seeing five, but he comes in next week and him say 50, that is sending a message. And he comes back the next year and he sees 150. That man is saying hold on a minute, there's a shift taking place in this constituency. I need to pay attention. So you go to that meeting and what that Member of Parliament (MP) has to do is to talk to you. How do you want us to spend this $20 million? So begin there.

Jeanette Calder: 30:45

Some Jamaicans think it's too difficult to impact what you call national issues, but it's not hard to impact local issues. That's at a constituency level. You don't need a lot of courage for that. So why don't we begin by going to that meeting, asking your Member of Parliament (MP) questions, demanding of him that X amount of that 20 million needs to go towards a school that still has a pit latrine? And some do Tell the Member of Parliament (MP) say, look, mp, the boys, the kids, them, come home and they don't have nothing for doing. Man, can we just be like a basketball court for them? You know what I mean. So what we are doing in a meeting like that, natasha, is what I call flexing your muscles. You are learning to engage your parliamentarian, you are learning how government makes decisions and you are getting used to the idea that I must be a part of the decision making process.

Natasha Levy: 31:36

I think you raised a good point earlier, Jeanette. I wonder, or what's your impression of? Do people think that they can make a difference, or is there general apathy on a whole? So you know you spoke about the declining voter numbers, voter participation numbers, but on a whole, do you find that persons feel that I can't make a difference, full stop?

Jeanette Calder: 32:06

Some Jamaicans do. Many Jamaicans don't feel that way at all. I will share this with you, just personally, on my own journey to making a difference. It started in 2005, meaning the need I would read the newspaper and I'm not happy about the things. I sat down I was not apathetic. Apathetic means not interested, don't think it matters. Disenchanted, discouraged no, I wasn't. If you were looking at my behavior, you would say I was because I wasn't voting at that time. I did not do anything that I'm doing now, but in my head and in my heart I had a burning interest in this country. I just didn't know what to do. I am convinced that the vast numbers of Jamaicans fit that group. It's not that they don't care, it's that they don't know how to demonstrate that they care.

Natasha Levy: 33:01

Understood, so when we talk about how to demonstrate. So what I've picked up so far would be clearly I need to visit the Jamaica accountability meter portal to get information, and it's not only about getting information, but there are action things that I can do or use a portal to achieve One, two, I can vote Three. I need to start attending those CDF meetings, right? Any other suggestions? Yes, and it would be good to hear suggestions that are baby steps. Yes, and then suggestions that are nice and big. So, apart from the ones that I've just mentioned, are there any other ways in which we can participate? You know, small ways to really big ways.

Jeanette Calder: 33:49

Yes, I think there are persons listening who would kind of scoff at what I'm about to say because they don't realize how important it is. But it is something that citizens have been doing for a very long time, just not realizing, Natasha, that it does make a difference, and that is call a call-in program.

Natasha Levy: 34:10

Call a call-in program. Yes, ma'am, but I thought those things were just for entertainment. I thought so too, daytime entertainment.

Jeanette Calder: 34:18

I thought so, too, until a member of parliament made me a little wiser. I thought so, too, until a member of parliament made me a little wiser. I recall, in 2013, an Member of Parliament (MP) saying to me because by 2012, I started to really, you know, kind of dabble and think about advocacy, and he had a conversation where he said to me the people think we do not listen, Ms Calder, but we listen very well. He said to me one of the most important things a politician who wants to be in power and wants to be successful has to do is listen. I was surprised to hear that, because you get the impression that they don't right yes, yes, no, no, no, no, no. One of the things he said, as an example, is, if we and I'm just sharing some of the stocks of the trade that people know our politicians are listening to our calling programs. They have persons. I don't know if they're paid or unpaid, but they're listening to hear.

Jeanette Calder: 35:13

What is Jamaica thinking? Now? Let's just think about what a survey is. When we're going into election, political parties can spend. I remember one year, years ago, it was a billion dollars. Between the two of them, that's a lot of money, you know. Don't forget that the Jamaica Labour Party and the People's National Party don't earn income. They are a civil society group just like JAMP, Don't forget that. So to get their hands on half a billion dollars, it has to come from mostly the private sector and donations and contributions. Now, when they get that money, they send out people like a Bill Johnson and a Don Anderson to do polls to find out what are the Jamaican people thinking. Good, so you have it already on good grounds that they are listening. Now how many people do they listen to? For any poll? You ever check out how many Jamaicans any of those expert pollsters talk to. It is almost never more than 1,200 people.

Natasha Levy: 36:14

That's a sample size, that's correct.

Jeanette Calder: 36:15

Now, I am not a statistician, but clearly you spend millions of dollars to pay these companies to talk to a little over a thousand Jamaicans to find out what they're thinking, and that tells us something. The science of taking polls tell us that if you can get 1,200 people, you will have a good idea of what 3 million people are thinking. You with me. That's what the science is saying. Yeah, what the science is saying. Yeah. So what they are saying is, if we want to get an idea of what 3 million people are thinking, and we spend a lot of money to know what 1,200 people are thinking, so that when we go into our elections we know how we need to package our ideas, and all of that During the course of a year they are still listening, not just at election time, and what they say is typically Jeanette, Jamaicans don't call in a lot.

Jeanette Calder: 37:03

It's almost the same people over and over again. So they take a note of when new people call in, because if a new person calls in, something has triggered a Jamaican that has never called in before to pick up the phone. They begin to listen differently and if, before the week is done, them have more than 10 people calling on that issue. It is a representative sample. It's a hot button issue. It's a hot button. You hear how much we say 10. So you and me might just get upset one day and call I don't want to call any particular name, but I'll show and we think I wasted my time. No, you did not. Our politicians are listening and the more people pick up the phone to spend even five minutes saying I am upset about this before the week is out, opm is going to hear you. Follow what I'm saying, natasha.

Natasha Levy: 37:56

I'm realizing the power of the voice, as you mentioned the power of the voice and it doesn't take a lot.

Jeanette Calder: 38:01

Now here I'm going to make it even more real. When I came home and decided that, look, we see this out of many things, it can't work, we can't cross it, as we say, and I went and I stood up in front of NHT. I stood up by myself and about no more than 30 people came to join me at any one time 30, 35 at the most. But what happened? The Prime Minister of Jamaica, by day two, decided that she's going to change her mind. Two days of standing up no more than 35 people, Natasha, what are they doing? They are listening. Now do not get me wrong. It doesn't happen that way every time, but you never know if it's going to happen that way until you do what, until you try. So I'm saying to citizens that protests are a legitimate way in a country of making your voice heard. Calling programs are. Your politicians are listening. Writing to the gleaner is a way in which they listen also, and they're taking note of what is concerning the people of Jamaica and how many people write in.

Jeanette Calder: 39:08

Now let me say this You're probably going to say Jeanette, a lot of people don't have the time. They have homework, three kids working two jobs. Whatever they're doing life and they're trying to survive, they don't have time for them. I'm going to put it to you, jamaica, that there's a little app on everybody's phone that tell you how much time you spend on each app. Remember me, tell you, go on your phone and check and see how many times you were on WhatsApp today. I bet you, natasha, it is more than 15 minutes. What I'm saying is it's not true to tell ourselves we do not have the time, and we are not asking you to become a civil society advocate. We are saying find five minutes using one of these. Oh, I don't even get to the other, the most important one. There's a calling, there's a right to the gleaner, the editor. You and I live in a day where Tacky Nanny, Sam Sharp, bogle Gordon never had this thing called a smartphone Right. Those people were trying to influence policy by a monarchy that was 9,000 miles away, and we're able to find a way.

Jeanette Calder: 40:18

Now, you and I have in our phone our own prime minister who we can talk to directly on social media. Exactly you, social media, exactly. Do not tell me it doesn't work. They have told me it does. They are paying attention, even when they're ignoring you.

Jeanette Calder: 40:34

Drop that tweet. And do not drop that tweet without tagging the person who you want to see it, because that is another thing, natasha. We're utilizing what we call digital democracy. That's the word for it. You know, got it Right, but you and Natasha talking Jeanette, but your leaders now hear you. So tag your leader, stop and find out. If this is a situation where noise abatter me the noise pollution party every night next door me and this is a residential neighborhood Me need to tell the minister of culture? That's one person. Me need to tell the commissioner of police, that's another person. Don't get on social media, natasha, and spend time just bawling about it to somebody else. Tag the relevant people and after a while you'll be surprised to know one, two, three. I have practical examples I can give you I document them of citizens coming on social media with an issue, tagging the right person, and I turn on parliament and hear a discussion on it. No joke.

Natasha Levy: 41:35

So, Jeanette, you're talking about us having a voice, amplifying our voice, using our voice, us having a voice, amplifying our voice, using our voice, recognizing that we have a voice to use. The flip side of that is the accountability part of it as well. Yes, right, so it's one thing to be vocal, it's one thing to have a voice, but what are your thoughts on the accountability aspect of it? And by accountability, clearly we're talking about persons who are representing us in government, the government as a whole, or political parties, because you alluded to it earlier that that people feel that things won't change. That's right, yeah. So what's the sense of me being vocal if, if nothing is going to be done, if nothing is?

Jeanette Calder: 42:21

One of the things you have to realize about change, Natasha, is that you have to have some element of faith and trust in your other citizens. One citizen getting up rarely. If I had stood on that street by myself, the prime minister would not have changed their mind, but I had to exercise some faith to believe that other citizens feel the same way and if I go, they would come and join me. Now with accountability. If there is one thing in Jamaica that I would say is next to zero, it would be accountability.

Natasha Levy: 42:54

You're not painting a very strong picture here, jeanette.

Jeanette Calder: 42:56

No, no no, it is bad beyond whatever you think, Natasha, in terms of how bad it is, I guarantee you it is worse, and I say that because I started JAMP, as the name says, the Jamaica Accountability Meter Portal, for the reason that none of your listeners you nor I, nobody in the studio got where we got in life without accountability Started with your parents, then to your teachers, maybe your pastors.

Jeanette Calder: 43:26

If you didn't have parents, you had an aunt who looking out for you, making sure you'd get the homework done, whatever. Then there came a time in your life where you had to have what they call personal accountability. After I left home at 17 to come to Sixth Form at Wolmers, I had to ensure I did what I had to do to achieve my parents weren't around. Accountability is the key to success personally, corporately, for a private sector company, and it's the same for a government and a national level, and Jamaica has next to zero. Having said that, I do believe it can change and that is why the Jamaica Accountability Meter portal exists, because we have exercised the faith that if we give citizens information about the things that have gone wrong and together we let government know that we are demanding that they fix it.

Natasha Levy: 44:36

they will. It's as simple as that. You know, natasha, that there's a bigger conversation in terms of how can we participate and participation is not only about voting that there are other things that we can be doing as well. And then you mentioned this notion of accountability and what drove you to create the accountability meter as a way of participating. I would love to hear some success stories.

Jeanette Calder: 45:13

Like tell me some of the things that you've managed to achieve. People's assets, watches out for it, especially our money, and makes sure that whatever the government is supposed to spend on, they spend on that amount and no more, on the right things and at the right time and if things go wrong and things go missing. I read an Auditor General's report that shared a horrendous story and, because the matter is, I'm not going to give the facts, simply because of where the matter is now in terms of investigation.

Jeanette Calder: 45:54

Okay, but suffice it to say, as a former public servant, I could not conceive of, let's say, buying a printer for $50,000 and not giving account for it. That's how I understood it to work in government. So when I found out and I'm giving an example here that $3 billion had been spent in a way in which the cabinet of Jamaica didn't know and for your listeners, no public official or department in this country can spend more than $60 million without the cabinet knowing. So $60 million, cabinet must know, right. So I can't imagine $3 billion being spent and the cabinet of Jamaica don't know. I can't imagine $3 billion being spent and the minister of finance don't know. And I certainly cannot imagine, when I was in government, me being so bright, running a department, yes, a program for the government, but spending $3 billion, and my permanent secretary don't know.

Natasha Levy: 46:57

Jeanette, just for clarification. I know that you're not going to get into the specifics of what is actually being investigated, but that number that you're giving me, the three billion- Is the real number.

Jeanette Calder: 47:07

That's the real number. That's the correct number, exactly so. When the Auditor General, in doing her work on behalf of the people of Jamaica, advised the parliament, through her report that was tabled, that this had taken place in a ministry, I was in shock and I said this is one that I have to follow up on as a citizen. I wanted to make sure that this one got resolved, and so, after about to be honest two years of not doing anything about it, jamp was now formed in 2019. This is 2020. I use the Access to Information Act, and I just want to pause to say that there are about 13 English-speaking countries in the Caribbean and about seven of them don't have this power that our parliament has given us. Barbados doesn't have it. So when a citizen in Jamaica see a contract gone sideways in Jamaica, your government empowers you to write in and demand information. So I did that. I didn't get a lot of information other than to learn which entity was investigating it. Okay. So I didn't just leave it and say, well, you know it is being investigated and feel good, okay, that's good. No, it's my $3 billion. So what do you think I did, Natasha? I wrote to the entity that's investigating and said under the access to information legislation, I would like to know, you remember, now, I know it's an investigation. They can't give me details, but I wanted to know are you still investigating? Is it making some kind of progress? Where is it? And I would write over the space of three years only twice per year. That's not a lot of work, Natasha. Just twice. You know what I was doing. I was saying to this entity I am interested as a citizen and I'm not letting this go because, you know, next year I'm going to write you again. Then I found out that the matter had gone to the director of public prosecution for her to decide if the persons who had spent that money without authority would be put before the court. Why do I call this a success story? Because the entity that was doing the investigation said to me the last time they gave me an update. You know, ms Calder, if you weren't writing this thing, it, would I be dead. You know, really no joke. I stood there. I can't tell you how I felt, Natasha, because I mean, I didn't know that they would admit it, but he was just being open. What they were really saying is so much comes into that office, but because twice a year we get this letter, it literally reminds us that we need to go to the next level and check on this thing again. The latest I heard is that the public officials who had actually made that decision were no longer in the country. I was very disappointed, but I was reassured by them, who were investigating that. Don't worry yourself, Jamaica has strong extradition relationships with the United States. They will be brought back here for court. So I say that to say it's a success, because it took nothing out of me to write two letters per year just to say where is this matter now as a citizen, and for them to say to me just in the last conversation, you know if we weren't getting these two letters.

Jeanette Calder: 50:25

I'm saying citizens are busy. Yes, citizens have a lot on their plate. Yes, but there are things you can do that don't take up as much time that you spend on your WhatsApp per day. That can move this country forward. That's one example. The second example most citizens wouldn't do this, but some citizens would. Certainly young students who are studying government at UWE would do something like this.

Jeanette Calder: 50:50

I want to know how my money's spending and I wanted to know about the local government. And in the Local Government Act it says that the government collects some money and it just basically tells me that every year, this money, this fund, has to be audited by the Auditor General. It don't take me no more than five minutes, natasha, for just write the Auditor General and say Auditor General, are you getting this thing audited every year? Are these people reporting what I'm spending with this money to you? And I wrote the people, the local government this was really what you call the parochial revenue fund and the equalization fund and I asked the local government permanent secretary. I said PS, I'm writing under the Access to Information Act and I'd like to know when was the last time you sent a report to the Auditor General for her to audit this fund?

Jeanette Calder: 51:42

Well, guess what? I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't get the answer I wanted and so I had to write a second time Because I've already called the name. I want to be very careful about what I say next, Natasha. But I want to say that all that basically happened is that once I started to write, the entity was behind by five years. They started immediately to get those reports ready and started sending them over to the Auditor General. Now it took about six months before I got an answer. But do you know what was happening in the six months? They were getting the work done, ah two. So then the Auditor General's department was able to write and say well, we haven't gotten any, but now we get two. That's just a citizen writing a permanent checker to say, ps, when last you do this.

Jeanette Calder: 52:30

You understand what I'm saying.

Jeanette Calder: 52:31

Yes, yes, At JAMP we call that minding with business. I say it on social media all the time Mind your business, JA, it is my business. What happens to that money? And it just take what A? It is my business. What happens to that money? And it just take what A little email. And now that Jump has this access to information tool, you don't need to know the PS email, Natasha, you don't need to know who is the access to information officer. You just got to JAMP tool and plug in what Ministry of local government ask a question. Hit send and that request is off.

Natasha Levy: 52:59

Well, Jeanette, it's been a fantastic conversation. I think that you were able to really show us that there are more ways in which we can participate, there are more ways in which we can mind our business. I like that Right. There are more ways in which we can mind our business. You are very clear that it's not 100 percent Right and there are, you know, but there are things that we can definitely do, and there are small things and there are some big things. So, to recap, you said well, voting is one way, but it's not the only way. You mentioned, you know, participating in the CDF meetings as an example. You mentioned protesting respectfully. You were very clear in making sure that you know, if you're going to go this route, that it must be done respectfully. The last two that you mentioned, or the second to last ones that you mentioned, I think would have resonated with a few people to realize that we can participate in a digital democracy by using social media, right, correct and the portal.

Natasha Levy: 54:08

And you mentioned as well that the good old writing in the paper, writing to the dear editor, still has value Still has value, as well as calling into the call-in programs, but the one that you mentioned, just in case it seems too many things to do. A simple place to go would be to go to the Jamaica Accountability Meter Portal, because there are six tools that people can utilize there to participate, absolutely. There is the Accountability Meter. There is the digital version of the budget so you can get information there. There's your Member of Parliament (MP) tracker that can give you granular information how many meetings has he attended? What has he been doing? You have the legislation tracker and the procurement tracker, and then you also have the access to information tool. You also have the access to information tool.

Natasha Levy: 55:02

So if we just wanted to start with one place, one one place we would definitely start at the Jamaica Accountability Meter portal, and the website is wwwjampja. org. Jeanette, I want to thank you so much for sharing your wealth and depth of knowledge with us today. We started off thinking that we were going to be talking about voting and voter behavior, but then it really opened up a greater conversation about how we can be active participants in this country. Thank you so much, Jeanette.

Jeanette Calder: 55:41

Thank you for having me, Natasha, and I just want to encourage your listeners by saying don't let what you can't do stop you from doing what you can, and do not be afraid to try. I think you should be afraid not to try, and so I just want to encourage all the other citizens knowing that if we just pull together a little bit more together, jamaica is going to be an amazing place in short order. Thank you so much, janine.

Natasha Levy: 56:33

Thanks for listening to this podcast of we Can Solve this a Solution Space podcast. Follow us on socials at we Can Solve this podcast Like, follow, subscribe. Follow us on socials at we Can Solve this Podcast. Like, follow, subscribe. We Can Solve this sharing ideas to help build thriving communities wherever you are. Thank you.