Speaker 1: 0:10

Welcome to we Can Solve this, a podcast where we break down issues and provide solutions based on research and best practices. We hope that the ideas shared here help build thriving communities wherever you are. Today, our guest in studio is David Cuthbert. He is an experienced registered architect in Jamaica, having been engaged in the development of residential, educational, commercial, government and healthcare facilities throughout the region. He is the principal architect at Cutworks Architecture, a full-service architecture firm located in Kingston, jamaica. They work in the residential, commercial and development sectors, with an emphasis on modern, sustainable development. He has published papers on a number of topics, including sustainability and the emergence of modern architecture in the Caribbean. He's an educator, having taught at the Caribbean School of Architecture and given lectures regionally and internationally. I feel honoured to be sitting and talking to you, david. How are you doing?

Speaker 2: 1:18

I'm doing pretty good.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Awesome, awesome. We are going to be looking at urbanism. We are going to be looking at the question can we modernize without compromise? So, david, I'm going to try and break this down in a really simple way. So when I talk about modernizing, I'm talking about our infrastructure. So I'm talking about all of the real estate development that's happening, whether it be additional, you know, housing units going up, or commercial buildings, or hotels. You know, can we, as a country, do all of those things without it messing up our environment?

Speaker 2: 1:59

The answer, in a simple way, is yes, it can be done. It can be done. I think there are immediate benefits of having you know that we're living closer to where we work. It means that there are reduced times that we spend, you know, in transportation, that we spend on the road. It means that there are greater opportunities for us to walk where we can or take a bicycle.

Speaker 2: 2:19

But, unfortunately, the way things are being done at the moment is that we're just not really reaching that opportunity. We're building many of these things closer to where we're living, closer to where we're working, but we're not taking up the opportunities that we can really get because we're taking simple routes. We're removing trees where we should be planting more, be planting more. We're not really engaging the public by, you know, creating more parks that we can go and enjoy the opportunities of actually living closer and living in the city and, as a result of it, we're ending up with really just a series of concrete structures, you know, almost isolated, you know, on these concrete lands, when, in fact, what we should be aiming for is trying to bring all the benefits of the forests into the city, and that's really what we're missing out on.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Well, David, here's my devil's advocate question. Every developing country needs to change and upgrade their infrastructure and their facilities and build out these nice, big, pretty buildings. So are you saying that we shouldn't be doing those things because we're trying to develop as a country?

Speaker 2: 3:33

We absolutely should be doing it. We need to develop and I think you know the way that we develop for Jamaica should be very different than the way the United States develops, so different than the way Singapore develops.

Speaker 1: 3:45

And why is that?

Speaker 2: 3:46

I think Jamaica is a unique place. You know, we already know that there is a spirit to Jamaica that is difficult to define, but there are some realities. You know we are in the tropics. You know we have the heat of the sun, you know, impacting on us. We have a hurricane season that changes the way that things. You know the way that we actually operate. We have rainy seasons. We have, you know, in a simple way, we have mango and pear season. You know the way that we design our cities and the way that we design our buildings should ultimately impact those things and I don't think we're really taking that opportunity at the moment.

Speaker 1: 4:24

And why do you think we're not taking advantage of that opportunity?

Speaker 2: 4:45

I think in many ways it's that those decisions and really what a Caribbean city, a modern Caribbean city, can look like, and I don't think we're really sort of taking that opportunity. And if it is, it's usually on a very small scale. What we would love to see is that those ideas, you know, really sort of permeate through the entire city, you know.

Speaker 1: 5:08

Well, let's delve a little bit into. You know what exists right now in Jamaica. So, from your perspective, like you alluded to some of the things that you think we could be doing differently, but if you drive through Kingston, you know, using the eyes and the lens that you have, what are you observing that we are doing that's causing a problem? Or, said another way, things that we're doing that appear to be compromising or not working in unison with the ecosystem.

Speaker 2: 5:39

I would say the first one is the removal of many of our old growth trees.

Speaker 1: 5:44

Our what sorry.

Speaker 2: 5:44

Our old growth trees. Old growth trees, yes, in a nice way, those are trees that are usually older than our own lived experiences. So you're talking about trees that are usually in excess of 80 years old, but it does usually apply for trees beyond, say, 40 or 50 years. Oftentimes these are trees that have very, very wide girth and they provide an ample amount of shade. And these trees would have taken time, they would have survived many a hurricane, and oftentimes it's the sort of manmade interventions that remove these trees. And we know the adage oh, we can always plant a new tree.

Speaker 2: 6:21

The downside is that the trees that they're often planting are not meant for, you know, really this generation, that's going to be for the next generation. But it means that you have to plant the right tree. You know, planting a palm tree that provides minimal amount of shade is not necessarily the best answer. You know it's a hard thing to look at. The other one is when you look at the amount of hard surfaces that they are around our city Areas that would have had, you know, sort of natural verges of, you know of plants of varying sizes, and trees are sort of being replaced, they're being taken out completely, that are being paved over, either as completely solid surfaces or, if they do have pavers, they're really providing for minimal amount of water absorption, and I think these two big things are, you know, what's ultimately occurring as a result is that it's heat island, which is basically we're having these small pockets where the temperatures are skyrocketing, you know, and they're skyrocketing to the point where it becomes difficult for us to even inhabit those small areas.

Speaker 2: 7:30

You know, we see these large sort of you know, parking areas that just take up parts of our city and they're just heat islands of concentrated heat and humidity, when ideally is that we should find ways that they can actually become actual areas where we're providing ways of managing and mitigating the heat in the city, that we can fill them with trees and vegetation, while potentially still being a parking area, or maybe it becomes a little bit of both. Maybe it's a parking at one part of the day, but maybe on weekends it becomes an area that you can relax and utilize the city. That are ways that we can sort of mitigate the ultimate heat that we're actually seeing, you know, continually rising each year.

Speaker 1: 8:17

David, this sort of way of thinking that you can incorporate more of the environment into your design. Is there a terminology for something like that?

Speaker 2: 8:27

Yes, ultimately, a lot of the decisions that we're talking about is what is referred to as social urbanism, okay, where you're making urban decisions not for, you know, short-term gain, but you're looking at how can you resolve many of our sort of social ills, many of the social problems, by making good urban decisions.

Speaker 2: 8:50

You know that have a long-term positive effect. And I think, ultimately, when we start talking about identifying, you know what does that Jamaican or Caribbean city look like? It's going to emerge out of a social urbanism. It's going to emerge from making decisions that are good for a tropical city, you know, making sure that the things that we have, you know, are given an opportunity to flourish. You know make sure that we have trees and shaded, you know, sidewalks, make sure that we have areas that are, you know, covered from when it's raining, that people can walk from one place to the next, that there's not this heavy reliance on actually utilizing our cars, that you know that we really need to find a way that we can take all the benefits of the city, take all of the joys of being in the Caribbean, and work towards it. That we start to make decisions that you know really begin to amplify those decisions.

Speaker 1: 9:51

So, looking at a country like Jamaica and you're talking about social urbanism, as you have explained it would you apply the same principles to a country like Jamaica versus, say, a country like the UK or a country like the US?

Speaker 2: 10:09

Definitely not. I think, while there might be similar things that you may want to, you know, ultimately aim for, I think the way that it's being done is going to be completely different. You know, I think everywhere, every city wants to really try and have people walking, you know, walking from place to place because it's a lot, you know, it's a whole lot better for the environment, it's better for us as people, you know, but the way it's being done is going to be completely different in Jamaica versus being done in the UK, versus in the United States. You know it's.

Speaker 2: 10:42

You know, jamaica, we, we have heat and rain, you know, and we have heavy seasons for those things, and it's never a small amount of heat, it's never a small amount of rain. We're talking, you know, potentially getting, you know, three to four inches of rain in an afternoon. You know how do we mitigate that, but still having someone be able to walk from their office. You, we mitigate that, but still having someone be able to walk from their office, you know, to home, you know, or going to grab a bite to eat, you know, and the way that we deal with those things are going to be very different than, say, you know, say, the United States, where they're not necessarily going to have heavy amounts of rain. So the way that it's done is going to be different, and I think that, ultimately, is what we need to find, and many of these things that we're referring to would have been done previously and it's now. Can we look at some of these, you know, sort of historic precedents that we have around Jamaica?

Speaker 1: 11:33

For example.

Speaker 2: 11:34

Something as simple as what we see in, you know, parts of crossroads going to downtown, which is the arcade, you know, which is just this overhang where the upper floors of these buildings just kind of jutted over the sidewalk just to provide a little bit of shade and protection when it rains.

Speaker 2: 11:53

You know, it's something simple that it means that one, the person who has the building that's close to the sidewalk, is able to develop over the sidewalk, but it also means that the person on the sidewalk gets to have a little bit of shade, a little bit of protection from the rain. You know, and something as simple as that is, you know, unfortunately we're not seen in new development for a variety of reasons. And it's unfortunate because, you know it's a you look around aspects of Jamaica about, you know, very urban sections of Jamaica and it was a solution that was applied and worked very, very well. And we're talking from, you know, easily, from 18th century, all the way to, you know, maybe in the 1960s, you know, but in many ways it just has not been something that has been replicated and as a result of it, we're, you know, we're losing, you know, parts of the things that result of it. We're, you know we're losing, you know, parts of the things that kind of define us as being, you know, being adaptable, you know, for the environment that we're in.

Speaker 1: 12:56

So, david, a thought occurred to me that you know we are Jamaica, we're this developing country. It kind of almost sounds like you're saying that I can't have my country look like all of these other first world countries. Why can't I have these great buildings that I see in places like Miami or places like New York, or those big cities? I don't want to look around and have this reminder that I'm still this developing country. Aren't these buildings a sign of progress?

Speaker 2: 13:26

I think these buildings are absolutely a sign of progress, but at the same time, we don't want negative progress. We want to make sure that things that we're doing are beneficial for all parts of society, and some of the examples, unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, are not really hitting that mark. I think it's very, very possible that we can take all of the good things you know that we see elsewhere, apply them to Jamaica, but not forget about all the great things that we have done. It needs to be the sort of perfect amalgamation of all of them, and I think that's really the opportunity that I think professionally, that I think socially, we all want to see happen and I think, for whatever reason, we're just not hitting that part.

Speaker 1: 14:10

You mentioned that we had a particular approach to developing up to about 1960. You mentioned that as an example, you know, having an overhang that creates a shade for the people who are walking beneath it on the sidewalk. What do you think changed? What do you think happened between now and then?

Speaker 2: 14:31

I think a lot of the decisions at an urban level may have been different, I think. For one, we were, I think, more focused on suburban development, where things were no longer in the city, so people were looking at living further and further outside of the city and so, as a result of it, after time many of the businesses also followed. Where people were moving, but instead of, you know, being developed where you know, taking that model that was existing before, you were now talking about businesses that were isolated on a piece of land where they no longer needed to have an arcade. They were, you know, dropped in the middle of their own land, if, by chance, it may have been more than one. They kind of created a plaza and so, yes, there might have been that idea of an arcade, but it was just isolated to that plaza. It had no way of connecting to the other parts of the city, and so that's not real urbanism.

Speaker 2: 15:29

If it's isolated, the decisions that you're making are not for the greater good. They're still very isolated. It's for you, if you're in that area of commerce or you know, within that development, it's not really connecting and creating a bit of fusion with the rest of the city, and I think that aspect about trying to connect to other things is really where the difference of all of these major cities that we look and admire? That's what they've gotten. They've gotten and that's what we've. You know, we've just not seen an opportunity about how it is that we can connect to one another on a greater scale, you know, for greater development.

Speaker 1: 16:09

So is it that we had a period of sort of ad hoc development, and what we're seeing in some of the other countries that I mentioned is, I guess, a more overarching plan for what this city is going to look like.

Speaker 2: 16:24

I wouldn't want to say that it's ad hoc. I think that the examples that persons were looking at were more sort of suburban developments that you see sort of proliferated around the United States, sort of that nuclear development things that were happening post-war, where people were creating these isolated communities that were separate and apart from the city. They had their place, but you know, as history has shown is that they don't really. They're sort of meant for themselves and they don't really allow for an effective growth and, as a result, what happens is after a while is that they can no longer meet or serve the communities that they have. Meanwhile, the cities that many of them abandoned are still functioning, they're still thriving, and so there has been this sort of global return to the city. And so I don't want to say that it's ad hoc. It was really the zeitgeist of what was happening at the time where people were doing things that they saw that were common, that they saw it being a solution for that time.

Speaker 2: 17:27

But scenarios changed. You know, they recognize that to make those things work there has to be this you know this dependence on commerce, this dependence on you know, private transportation. You know, because you're so isolated, you know it becomes difficult to say okay, you know, because you're so isolated. You know it becomes difficult to say okay, where, how does the school connect to this facility? You know it means that children or adults have to jump. You know they have to have their own car because it's it's too far to walk. And so there's this heavy reliance on, you know, private and public transportation. What if you can eliminate all of those things? The city usually solves that problems because most things tend to be in walking distance. If they are a little bit further, it's a very short public transportation ride around and it becomes easier to use those things than it is to use your personal transportation. In many cases the city, even if it's disconnected from where you live, you park, you know, at one point in the day. The rest of the day you just spend walking around you know or?

Speaker 2: 18:30

taking public transportation to go a little bit further, and those are the things that we're really hoping to see happen. And it doesn't mean that it has to be isolated to our pre-established cities and towns. If you wanted to create new towns, it's about, you know, still taking those lessons and applying them.

Speaker 1: 18:48

So, david, a question for you here. You mentioned earlier some of the things that you observed. So you talk about removal of the old growth trees and, you know, perhaps not planting back sufficient quantities or the right type of trees. Then you also mentioned the increase in the just the number of, or the amount of, hard surfaces that we're seeing out there coming at the expense of, green spaces. So my non-architect mind immediately goes to well, are there rules and regulations from a planning perspective that would govern this? I mean, you talk about social urbanism, but is it and it's a very big concept Could we simply start by saying, all right, well, if you're going to be developing, then these are the guidelines.

Speaker 1: 19:44

You know, if you're going to be putting up structures, then these are the guidelines, because in the absence of that, people are going to go for what's cost effective, what's going to give them, you know, the best return on their dollars. They're thinking very much from that perspective. They're not necessarily think, or it's I'm assuming that they're not necessarily thinking or it's. I'm assuming that they're not necessarily thinking about green spaces, heat islands. They're not thinking through that, they're just thinking how many apartments can I put on this structure? So the question is from a planning permission perspective or from a guideline perspective? Are there guidelines in place that speak to what developers can or can't do? That would be social urbanization friendly.

Speaker 2: 20:29

I think in the first part, absolutely Many of the decisions of why we're seeing sort of this growth in development has been because of that sort of greater good conversation, where the density was increased, you know, throughout the city, and you know in many cases it doubled or tripled, and so what was able to happen was that we were able to have taller buildings on smaller lots that people could, you know, we had an opportunity of having let's not even use as high rise, but multi-story, you know, apartments in areas that would have just been a single family residence, and there's nothing wrong with that, you know, and in many ways it's actually a very good thing for the city.

Speaker 2: 21:11

What, unfortunately, has been happening and I think a lot of it are what we're seeing, as you know, we're seeing the problems unfolding as the solutions are coming out is that, in many cases, to try and meet the demands, many of the planning demands and many of the demands out of municipalities, in trying to make sure that they have enough parking, to make sure that they, you know that they meet all of these other checkbox things, they're doing it at the expense of other things that are at the moment more suggestive and more kind of, you know good practice but are not necessarily implemented.

Speaker 2: 21:51

We would love to see that they begin to talk about very specifically about the amenity spaces that have to be provided for developments, that they become really hard and fast and start to say, well, you know, whatever number of trees that are on the site, at the very beginning, we want you to make sure and you know, try and increase that by 10% that you minimize the amount of you know, hard spaces, which already is part of the law, but how they manage it is it is they you know, for all of these sites that they're doing it does talk about that they're not allowed to use entirely hard surfaces, that they should, you know a portion of it has to be things that allow for what is the word that has to allow for that you can actually have water absorption.

Speaker 2: 22:38

The problem is that there is no detail amount that says, well, if it allows for water absorption, it has to be X percentage, and so the details, the aggregate, it matters, because people are just as I said, it's just a checklist. I think we need to kind of get to a point where we're a little bit more sophisticated with it. We need to start to say you know we want to make sure that when you're planting trees, we want to make sure that we have trees that can provide shade, that they need to be of you know, of such and such size spread to provide enough shade. You know, for the property that they need to be things that can grow to a particular height and I think those details are, I think, in many ways, the difference between just doing a development and doing a really good development.

Speaker 1: 23:28

So there definitely is room from a regulation perspective to legislate some of these principles Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 23:38

Yes, and I think you know the, with encouragement and I don't want to use the word pressure, but I think encouragement to you know, both professionals, developers, contractors that I think many of these things can be implemented and that we'll see that the many of the structures that are going up become, you know, good stewards for the city, rather than as eyesores or things that bring concerns to people. You know, I think there are opportunities, you know, and it's just about. Can we grasp those opportunities? They're not all things that are expensive, you know, but some of them, you know, people are just not aware of. And I think it becomes important and it becomes, I think, critical for us as citizens that we need to try and find ways that we can actually get these things done.

Speaker 1: 24:23

We Can Solve. This is brought to you by Solution Space Consulting. Have a podcast idea, need editorial support for books or other publications? Solution Space will produce your podcasts and take care of your publications. Visit solutionspacecocom so that we can create wonderful work together. Are there countries out there in your experience that are practicing this concept, this notion of social urbanism, and could you give me, say, an example of something that one of these countries you know implemented, or they do?

Speaker 2: 24:55

Sure, we have, you know, two really good examples in South America. We have Cartagena in Venezuela and we have Medellin, you know, in Colombia, and they've both taken, you know, really good actions in terms of how can you make decisions that help the city In many ways. Some of the simplest of things that they've done is implementing things of pocket parks. You know pocket parks, pocket parks, so these are. They're usually quite tiny, they're they range anything from they're usually sub 500 square feet. So we're talking fairly small. They're usually smaller than an apartment block and they're just an opportunity within the city that you can grow trees, that you get a little bit of respite from all of the hard surfaces. And they've you know in many ways that they are. They're in places that we just drive past, that we walk past, that we don't even know that has the opportunity for it, and they've just taken in many cases to try and implement those things to encourage their professionals. They send out tenders to design them, to identify locations that they can put them in, and they might be they range from, you know a variety of different things. They might just be a place to sit and rest. There might be a place that you can grab water. In some cases they have, you know, just little kiosks that vendors are actually located on. But they also become areas that you can preserve trees, that you can plant new trees, that you can, you know, put in areas that are that encourage the city, you know, spaces that are that help preserve our bees. You know, we know that we're ending out with a loss of our major ways of actually encouraging our cities, you know, and our actual forests to thrive and grow, and they've just found ways of trying to implement those in a very small effort to put them in, and it doesn't have to be sort of a high-level thing only In many cases.

Speaker 2: 26:53

A lot of our pocket parks in Jamaica are being done by community associations, and I think in many ways that's the right approach. It'd be good to see them get more and more support, you know, be it from things like forestry department or even sort of the you know various, you know agencies. We can begin to do more of those things, and it takes away the thing about being the government or leaders having the true ownership, but rather the ownership belongs to all of us, you know. We be the ones to encourage that our local and our native plants are actually being, you know, planted in these areas, native plants are actually being, you know, planted in these areas. That we set up tiny nurseries, that it's OK if somebody goes and picks a plant to go and help and develop their own, because in many ways that's what this thing is for, because you want to see more of these things happen in the city, that we have areas that somebody can just take a break. You know it's.

Speaker 2: 27:58

I like to use the example that you know we saw Emancipation Park happen and we loved it and we think it's this amazing thing and I said imagine if we had Emancipation Park at a smaller level within every single community. In Cherry Gardens, in Waterworks, in Vineyard Town, we had a small emancipation park where people could come together for just a little bit of respite in the city, whether it became to exercise, just to take a little bit of the stress of the day, to just sit underneath for a shade, just to wait until the lights, the streetlights came on, before going about their day. You know, things as simple as that can ultimately really change a city for the better, and it really talks about how can we make, you know, social decisions rather than there being sort of private decisions. You know what can we do that's really for the good of the city, that kind of benefits us all.

Speaker 1: 29:03

So when you talk about we and you talk about opportunities, who would you say the stakeholders are in this concept of social urbanism? Who would need to come together to begin to make these meaningful changes?

Speaker 2: 29:19

I think the we is multi-tiered. The we is you and I. It's the persons that recognize that there's a problem. The we are the people who don't even know that there's an issue but notice that it's getting hotter, that they have to go on public transportation just to get to the area that they can enjoy themselves. The we are the municipalities, the we are the organizations, the community groups that come together. But I think specific to all of that is being able to shift the focus, taking a very positive assertion that there are ways that we can fix these things by our own very minimal efforts. We can effect larger change by doing the things that are. You know within our cable tool that you know, if we focus on the things that we can change, those effects can have a larger and long-term effect for the better.

Speaker 1: 30:17

What are some of what's stopping us? What do you think some of the challenges are?

Speaker 2: 30:21

I think some of the problems are is that we I think we all want to be giant killers.

Speaker 1: 30:26

Giant killers.

Speaker 2: 30:27

Yeah, I think there is a. There's something within our Jamaican bravado that you know, tells us that we should always be going for the big fight rather than sometimes trying to solve the little things at home. You know the, you know, right now everyone has. You know, many people want to have a simple dwelling, that they can have a lawn and something as simple as a lawn. And I think, why do you want a lawn? You know it's this very flat area. Yes, you might be out there playing, but you know what about actually having something that is filled with plants? You know that the lawn area is much, much smaller and that you dedicate maybe half of it to planting trees, planting, you know, native bushes that you can, you know, encourage some of our little, you know, natural bits of flora to actually flourish. You know, things of that nature are very easy at an individual level.

Speaker 2: 31:19

What if, as a community, we said, well, we've done this at our own home. How about we try and identify an area within our community that we can share? You know, maybe an area that we can set up as our own little tiny park? Could we do that? You know, and if we start to focus on those things, the levels up can start to say, well, we see, these communities have gone ahead and have started their own pocket parks. Imagine how different it becomes when, every year, when we start talking about we're going to try and plant you know government loves to talk about we're going to plant three million trees, one for every inhabitant, you know, on the island, what if we start to say, well, the three million are already there, how about we start adding more? How about the conversation becomes very different? How about we start having? You know that we start having, I don't know. We have 100 feet of walking track for every citizen in the world.

Speaker 1: 32:15

So what do you think is stopping us?

Speaker 2: 32:18

I think we're just focused on the bigger problems rather than the things that we can actually fix, and I think one of the small ways is, you know, sometimes we just have to do things that you know need to be done, whether they are, you know, guerrilla exercises where you have to apologize after. But you know, instead of waiting for it to be fixed by someone else, can you fix it.

Speaker 1: 32:42

Do you think awareness is another issue?

Speaker 2: 32:44

Absolutely. As I said, some people are not even aware of some of the problems. You know, we see, you know I think many of us have seen the horrors. You know you'll be going in an area and we see, say, jps cutting down a tree. You know considerably and you know we're just appalled and sometimes they've completely rooted out the tree and you said, couldn't there be a better way? And you know, in a simple way, one of the questions could be just to pick up the phone and call Forestry Department and say, hey, you know, do you guys have an arborist available? And what's an arborist? An arborist is a tree doctor. A tree doctor yeah, that was a real tree doctor you know.

Speaker 2: 33:41

So to make sure that, things out of that nature, that when those trees are being cut, that there's an arborist nearby. That again, you know, we see these beautiful sidewalk. You know, that's there. You know, and the sidewalks that we have in Jamaica are never continuous, they start and they stop. But we also end up with these huge things in the way. You know, we have a telegraph pole that's in our sidewalk and so the sidewalk becomes, you know, does anybody actually pick up the phone and call the, you know, the help desk and say, hey, there is this telegraph pole that's on the corner of this and this. We can't use the sidewalk anymore.

Speaker 2: 34:16

Is there a solution? You know, and you call and you complain about that and you offer solutions. How can we resolve that? And there are means that there are ways that can be resolved. But we have to say something. You know, we can't just complain in an abyss or, you know, come on programs like this and just kind of say that there's an issue. How can we direct our, what we want to see as solutions to the right individuals? And I think in many cases, you know, people believe that they're not issues because they've never been communicated to them. And I think in many ways, those are the right ways, you know.

Speaker 1: 34:54

If I wanted to find out more about how I could play a more active role in having the sustainable development, what are some of the resources that I could tap into?

Speaker 2: 35:05

Oh, there are a variety of resources. There is a local urbanist community group called Island City Labs. They have been very keen at doing a lot of community-based involvement. I think any conversation with any of our sort of community associations I think are worthwhile. We've heard many of them in the paper and in the news lately. You know the conversations with them are always worthwhile.

Speaker 2: 35:35

In many cases these same sort of community groups reach out to architects, ask their opinions, ask them to come and sit on their boards, offer a bit of insight. Architects oftentimes are more than happy to, and I think that's one of the easiest ways. I think. Outside of that, the conversations can be held with NEPO, I think, the National Environmental Planning Agency. They have many professionals that have, you know, very strong opinions about how the city can grow. They're quite learned and quite experienced about how the city can grow. They're quite learned and quite experienced about how these things can happen. But recognizing that you know they serve a particular arm within development and that it really needs to be cohesive, you know. So we need to make sure that the everyone is singing from the same hymn book and to the right melody, and I think that's the. I think, as a larger strategy. That's ultimately what has to happen. But each of the players, you know, has a little bit of room and a little bit of growth that they need to take from the purchasers.

Speaker 2: 36:38

You know, we, as I think, we, as purchasers of real estate, you know we need to demand more. That's not just I want more square footage, or you know, I want more windows facing this direction. No, you know how about? I want to make sure. Show me the amenity space. Where are the trees? You know, where am I supposed to? You know, where am I supposed to go and enjoy the shade at the end of the day? Where's all of that? Rather than, how much parking do I get? Can I get larger square foot? But let's start asking questions that really, really matter. I think you know, for one, as consumers, also as inhabitants of the city, you know making sure that we need to create a bit of a fuss when we see things that don't sit right with us. You know, even if it's a simple question that you know may seem that it's above, you know, above our station, we need to ask the question.

Speaker 1: 37:33

And when you say above our station, what do you?

Speaker 2: 37:34

mean, and it may be. You know it may be a layman's question. You know where, as a professional, we get asked all the time, like all of these buildings that are happening in the city. You know we're talking about a greater concentration. Can our infrastructure manage it?

Speaker 1: 37:52

And David, where would I direct these questions?

Speaker 2: 37:55

These questions could be directed I mean, ultimately they should be directed to the words of municipality, because those ultimately.

Speaker 2: 38:02

Yeah, I think, because you know if we're asking about, if our, you know if our infrastructure can manage. You know we're talking about many things. Can our roads manage? So you know that becomes a question to a national works agency. If we're talking about general urbanism and an environment, that is with NEPA. If we're talking about water and sewage, that's with Water Commission.

Speaker 2: 38:24

You know, and all of these people are stakeholders within development. They are, they all have a say when new development pops up and there is, you know there's a bit of. You know, a lot of development that's happening for the now, but there's a lot of development that's happening for the future. So in many cases things get approval because there's a larger plan to expand things. You know it doesn't mean that you're going to stop those things and wait for the expansion. Sometimes things have to dovetail within one another. So again it's you know you're not trying to look down at development but just trying to say can we ultimately do these things better? You know, if we're talking about that, you know we want to.

Speaker 2: 39:09

You know people like talking about water harvesting, which is great. You know there's water harvesting on a personal level, but there's also water harvesting on a much larger scale, some of the cities that I mentioned, these tropical cities that work. A lot of the water that gets caught in the drains it ends up back into the system. It doesn't just go out to the sea. They find a way of actually capturing it so that it gets to go back in a very healthy way back into the soils, back into the aquifers to be used and return back into the cycle that can be again be rain that can become water that we can drink, again be rain that can become water that we can drink. And I think that's ultimately where we'd like to get to you know as a functioning, sustainable city.

Speaker 1: 39:54

So what I'm hearing is we need to start small. We need to actually realize that we can have a voice and not be afraid to use it. We need to be aware of who the stakeholders are in the process so that we can get in contact with them, and you mentioned a few of them the municipality agencies, nepa, nwa, etc. Etc. You also mentioned that we could go to Island City Labs and have a look at what it is that they are doing as well and talking to community groups. So it is something that can be done. It is something that is achievable.

Speaker 2: 40:38

Absolutely, and I think you know there are lots of other persons that we can talk about and lots of other associations.

Speaker 2: 40:45

The Jamaican Institute of Architects as a body, you can reach out to any of its members.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Or, if you want to reach out to the organization alone, you can reach out to the Jamaican Institute of Engineers. You know, again, a number of experts that can begin to assist, that we can begin to ask those questions, and they, you know both of those organizations. They're, you know, they spend a lot of time lobbying with the government, but are also looking to be allies for the community, and I think it's, you know, it's really just a matter of these community organizations reaching out to them, individuals reaching out to them and saying, hey, I have a thought or I have a question. Hey, I have a thought or I have a question. Could you help me? And as I've found, they're always more than willing to assist to you know, to offer an ear, offer a bit of advice, speak about, you know how these things can happen. But ultimately, every single one of us, of this 3 million of us on this lovely island, are potential change agents, and I think it's just about recognizing that we have power in our voice.

Speaker 1: 41:50

So, david, you've actually given us some good examples of things that can be done. You know, you mentioned, you know rethinking how we approach hard surfaces, concrete spaces, concrete jungles. You know how we approach water and rain and how we treat with that, how we incorporate green into how we're planning, how we're developing, how we design so that you create these natural shade areas, how we really think about a holistic approach to design. So would I be cheeky in saying, david, that when I started off this conversation, I threw out the question can we modernize our cities, can we modernize our country, without compromising our relationship with the environment? And did I hear a qualified yes?

Speaker 2: 42:44

There is more than a qualified.

Speaker 1: 42:45

yes, I would say hell yes, you say hell yes, hell yes.

Speaker 2: 42:48

It can be done. It can be done and I think it can be done with, you know, just a little bit of Jamaican pizzazz.

Speaker 1: 42:55

Wow, I like that. I absolutely like that. I think one of the things I really loved is hearing that we can design for us. We can design for us, we can design for this Jamaican experience, and this Jamaican experience doesn't necessarily have to come at the expense of any development metrics. It doesn't have to come at the expense of improving the quality of lives of our citizens. That it can be done with Jamaican pizzazz. I love that.

Speaker 1: 43:29

David, thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation. I learned a lot today. I think I'm really going to be looking differently at how my living space looks. You know how my community looks and you know I'm not saying that I'm running out to develop any apartment complexes, but, if you know, I will be on the lookout for things like that. Thank you so much, david. It's been a great conversation and I look forward to hearing more from you in the future. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this podcast of we Can Solve this a Solution Space podcast. Follow us on socials at we Can Solve this podcast. Like, follow, subscribe. We Can Solve this sharing ideas to help build thriving communities wherever you are. Thank you.