Natasha Levy: 0:08

Welcome to we Can Solve this, a podcast where we break down issues and provide solutions based on research and best practices. We hope that the ideas shared here help build thriving communities wherever you are. Our guest today is really special and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. It is Dr Cliff Riley Now. Dr Riley is the Director General of the Hazardous Substance Regulatory Authority in Jamaica. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the conversation today. How are you doing?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 0:44

I'm doing very well. Thanks for having me, natasha, really, really looking forward to the discussion.

Natasha Levy: 0:48

So I think, before we get into the conversation and tell people why we're here, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 0:56

Well, I'm the head of the Azado Substances Regulator Authority here in Jamaica and we place a lot of emphasis on everything radioactive, or radioactive nucleotide, in a sense looking at nuclear technologies. So we use X-rays in the form of ionized radiation to advance our economy. So we place a heavy emphasis there in terms of the regulatory framework to ensure that there are safe practices that protect people, property and environment. But I also do quite a bit of work throughout the region with quite a number of multilateral institutions the International Trade Center, which is based in Geneva, looking at food safety and security programs throughout the entire CARICOM region, and also with the Inter-American Corporation of Agriculture looking at strengthening agricultural health and food safety programs, working in the food safety and security space to ensure that the entire CARICOM region is resilient and is able to meet the challenges that are posed by different changes within the climate, as well as financial and geopolitical shifts, to ensure that we remain secure in terms of our food availability as well as our food security programs.

Natasha Levy: 2:02

That's quite an impressive biopic, and I really would like to just focus on one aspect of all the amazing things that you do, because today I would love to have a conversation about food security. So let's start from a very simple place what exactly is food security?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 2:19

Well, the name is self-explanatory in terms of you being able to ensure that you have something. When you come on to food security, you're looking on three major components One, access to the food. Two, availability of the food. And three, the quality of the food. Once you meet those three criteria, you can consider yourself to have a robust food security program in place. If your food is available but is not affordable or not of good quality, you have food insecurity. If your food is available but is not affordable or not of good quality, you have food insecurity. If your food is affordable and the quality is poor, then you don't have food security either. So those are some of the key aspects that we have to consider, and oftentimes persons may look on food security as being an issue. Am I able to produce enough food? Am I able to have enough arable land? What about access to water? All of those parameters feed an entire food security thrust within a particular country, in a particular region, and we also have to consider those three components affordability, availability, as well as quality.

Natasha Levy: 3:23

So, cliff, this perhaps is a trick question. Do all countries need to consider food security as well as a quality? So, cliff, this perhaps is a trick question. Do all countries need to consider food security? Is that an issue that everybody, all countries, should be concerned about?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 3:32

Most definitely, and I think we should have learned quite a bit from COVID. Whenever you have any major fallout in any country, may that be from war, diseases or any other aspect or component, then you tend to find that most countries focus on having food available, securing their food supply first and foremost. So it is something that every country has to aim towards ensuring they're producing enough high-quality, affordable food to feed their population for any set time period. And the thing about food security as well, too. You know we're not talking about you affordable food to feed their population for any set time period. And the thing about food security as well, too. You know we're not talking about you being able to feed yourself today, but how long you're able to feed your population. That ties into that food security thrust and that food safety practice. So every country has to have a food security plan, have their strategies to be implemented and ensure they can always feed their people, irrespective of any natural or man-made related disasters.

Natasha Levy: 4:31

So how does food security impact consumers and the economy?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 4:35

It has a major impact on the economy and consumers, because they're looking at productivity as well, and when you look on the entire productivity index, you have to look on the overall health and wellness of your population.

Natasha Levy: 4:47

What is a productivity index Cliff?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 4:49

You're looking on what the output is from your people within the working sector. How much are they putting out? How are we able to respond to different activities? And there are a number of things that you need to look on in terms of the space, in terms of the level of output, the level of production, the level of exports. And also it's similar to when you're looking on the pass rates of your students within a classroom how many are passing their respective tests?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 5:15

And if they are not passing tests, look on some of the root causes as to the reasons behind that issue, and it's a similar issue in terms of food. If persons are not properly nourished, you can't expect them to be productive, and if people are not productive, you're going to have significant negative impacts on the entire economy, in all aspects of the economy. So we have to first ensure that we have our robust food security programs in place and we have good quality food that's available for our people, because it is directly linked to the health of our people, which inherently links to the productive output within any particular society which drives the economy.

Natasha Levy: 5:53

Now this all sounds very, very theoretical. But let's break it down to say a country like Jamaica. Earlier you had mentioned that a good food security plan should think about being able to feed your population not just for today or tomorrow, but for a particular length of time. What would a good plan look like for Jamaica? How long should we be looking to feed our people for it to be considered? You know we've got a secure source of food or that we're food insecure.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 6:24

You have to look on consistently feeding people and the schedule and production systems that you have in place. One of the beautiful things about agriculture there have been quite a bit of advances in agriculture, so we're able to store foods for a longer period of time. So you have to look on your storage capacity and capabilities within your space. And let's take a commodity like Irish potato, for example. In Jamaica we produce Irish potatoes between October all the way through March, but we consume Irish potatoes right throughout the year. So we have built in systems to ensure that Irish potatoes are available throughout the entire year so persons can access that commodity as something they consume. And you also have other field safes in place. So when our quantity or food number reduce, we can import to offset demands within a country, within a particular space.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 7:12

So your food security program has to be continuous. What is produced at what point? What are the needs of the people? What's the productive capacity of your food production systems? What do you have in terms of your storage? And you also have to factor in the trade component, because every single economy wants export. I don't want to export value-added products, I don't want to export raw products. So you have to consider all of that. So your entire food security program has to consider your consumption patterns, to consider your weather patterns, to consider your export potential and targets, and you also have to put in place, in terms of the buffer where you need imports to replace what has been diminished.

Natasha Levy: 7:53

Now, it's so interesting that you mentioned that, because when you mentioned food security before and you spoke about a country's ability to feed its people, I automatically assumed you meant a country's ability to produce its own things or produce its own food. But what you're saying is that a good food security plan is not only what you produce, but when you're looking at the total needs and seeing well how you can. What's the balance between what I can produce myself versus what I need to import?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 8:23

Most definitely. And you take a typical commodity like our national dish saltfish. We consume a large amount of saltfish but we don't produce it, we do not produce it.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 8:31

So we ought to ensure that we have markets variable markets that can supply that particular commodity. A lot of the fruits that we consume in Jamaica are grapes or apples. We are not producing cantaloupes, we are producing watermelons, but a lot of the fruits we consume in Jamaica are from other markets. So you have to ensure that you have your consistent supply and reliable markets that feed into your entire food security program. I am of the view, and a number of scientists are of the view, that we, as a country, you should be able to produce between 60 to 70 percent of what your people consume.

Natasha Levy: 9:04

So I think I have a tangential question. So, if that's a benchmark that we're going for, what impact does climate change have on countries' abilities or ability to produce their own? When we're talking about droughts, when we're talking about, maybe, flooding, rising sea levels, does climate change impact or play a part in this whole food security equation?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 9:31

Let us take fish, for example. Let us look at how the cost of sea fish has increased over the past year. We're looking at fish from the fishermen, moving from $700 to $1,500 per pound for fish. It speaks for itself. Climate change is having a significant impact on availability of food. It affects the size of the catch in terms of the farmers and in terms of the fisher folks, and that itself is going to impact negatively on availability. And we understand dynamics within the market. When you have high demand, low availability, the affordability increases. So you always have to try and contend with those particular risks. So climate change has been having significant impacts and we can see the fishing industry as a typical example. And when you look on the primary production in terms of the farm, the producers who are growing primarily crops, then you see the instability, the unpredictability in terms of temperature and rainfall, and agri-production Most farmers are looking on you know, high volume of production.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 10:34

Let's look on Irish potatoes again and I can use that as an example. We had larger production of Irish potato last year. This year we had that drought that started a bit earlier, from in February. So you're seeing a significant drop in availability of Irish potatoes. They start increasing Irish potato prices. Yams, for example. The price of yams have not gone below $250 to $300 for the past two years and again it has to do with the availability of yams, which is impacted again by climate change Low rainfall, very high droughts and we do have rain. We have too much rainfall. So climate change plays a major role in the entire food safety and the food security. Not just the security but also the safety and programs within any particular country. And the interesting thing is that climate change is not limited to Jamaica, so you look on the availability for imports. It also has a negative impact because other countries are feeling similar impacts of climate change so it's more competition again for the same products, so you're paying higher prices again.

Natasha Levy: 11:36

What other factors are out there, apart from climate change, that can contribute to food insecurity?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 11:43

You're looking on the availability of land.

Natasha Levy: 11:45

Okay.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 11:46

We have a complex in Jamaica where we love to build our houses on nice plain level lands and leave the mountains for other things, right, so we've been utilizing quite a bit of our arable lands over the past years, and that itself will impact negatively on your agri-production. You have less arable land for production, less food that can be produced. If you produce less food, your population is increasing. The diet of your people have expanded significantly means that you're importing far more and more. The application of technology is another approach as well, because we have seen significant investments in terms of greenhouse production, greenhouse farming in Jamaica, or what they call protected agriculture in Jamaica over the past years. But most of the production in the protected space look on our spices mainly on small fruits and vegetables, like your lettuce peppers, sweet on or spices mainly and small fruits and vegetables, like your lettuce peppers, sweet peppers, that is and your tomatoes Some people may do cantaloupes, some people may do watermelons. So the protected agriculture system is somewhat restricted. So we're looking on other approaches in terms of vertical agriculture.

Natasha Levy: 12:52

Vertical agriculture.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 12:53

So you have persons importing aquaponics towers now to grow their crops. Aquaponics towers are taking like 45.

Natasha Levy: 13:00

Oh, when you say vertical, you mean instead of planting across the land, you're planting up Up in the air yes, Got you.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 13:07

So, utilizing that same four square feet, instead of putting one cabbage in that space, you're having like 45 cabbages in that particular space Because you're farming upwards.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 13:18

So we have seen the onset of new technologies within agricultural space as well, which kind of offset some of the loss of access to arable land.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 13:29

But at the scale at which we are consuming and not only that, our tourism industry keeps growing consistent as a country, we are moving from 2 million and 3 million tourists each year. We're consuming a large volume of the food that is produced in Jamaica, so each year we have to plan to produce far more. So our food security issue is not only about feeding your people, but you have to be able to feed your visitors as well, without affecting the affordability or the availability of the quality of food that is going to your people as well. So our food security system in Jamaica is rather complex because we rely heavily on tourism. You know, when you have tourism and the last time I checked it was about 30% of GDP when you have tourism contributing so much to your GDP, it means that it's an invaluable service that we have to consistently supply and support. So we have to change the dynamics in terms of agri-production, so access to more arable land, application of newer technologies and new farming systems that can help to boost the productivity.

Natasha Levy: 14:33

Cliff, does policy play a role in any of this, or is it just those things that you've just mentioned?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 14:42

Policy is critical, you know, and I think over the years we have been looking on the drive for agri-production to come more from investments or individuals. But there has to be a strategic approach to how we produce food in Jamaica, and we're not talking about plants only. Looking on beef, we import a large volume of beef. We import a large volume of mutton. We import all the ox tail that we consume. We import all of the saltfish that we consume. So we have to have a policy framework in country to say this is what we are going to do.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 15:14

We will ensure that each year, say, for example, we may say every year we're going to make available 4,000 acres of land that goes to primary agri-production.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 15:23

We have bauxitic land, bauxitic soil, mined lands. We're going to move 4,000 acres, 2,000 acres, to agri-production each year. Or we're going to take a policy direction in terms of incorporating advanced technologies in agri-production and we may waive particular fees, we may increase fees in a particular area. So we can take a policy direction and say, guess what? We need to ensure that at least 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, whichever the size of country that is consumed is produced within a space and that prevents the dumping of cheap food in a market space, because if a farmer is producing a large volume of a commodity and the price point at which they're selling that commodity is not covering their investment costs, they're going to pull out of the sector. You can't afford for a farmer who's producing 100,000 pounds of pumpkins or 50,000 pounds of yams to just pull out of the market because they lost all their money in one particular season. So the policy has to be broad based. It has to incorporate all different components or individuals within a particular space to see how we advance that as a country.

Natasha Levy: 16:30

We Can Solve. This is brought to you by Solution Space Consulting. Have a podcast idea? Need editorial support for books or other publications? Solution Space Consulting. Have a podcast idea? Need editorial support for books or other publications? Solution Space will produce your podcasts and take care of your publications. Visit solutionspacecocom so that we can create wonderful work together. So how do we plan for food security?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 16:54

You have to bring the stakeholders together. We have to understand the dynamics within this space. We have to understand the consumption pattern within a particular country. We need to know what our people are consuming. We also have to get a good understanding of what the waste level is like.

Natasha Levy: 17:11

Waste level.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 17:12

Waste level Because we waste a lot of food. We waste a lot of food. We waste a lot of food. When you look on Jamaica, between 10 to 20% of the yams that we produce in Jamaica each year is dumped. It's spoiled. When you approach January to March, we are dumping about 50% of the tomatoes we produce each year. If you look at the dynamics in the market space when you approach between February and March, the cost of sweet peppers, tomatoes, those dip, the cost of Irish potato dip, the cost of a lot of our commodities pumpkins, a lot of our commodities during those three-month period, two three-month period tend to dip significantly, Right, so we lose a lot of production. Let's come into the summer now.

Natasha Levy: 18:03

We're dumping 80% of our mangoes. I think I might be responsible for giving like 3% of that, the mango tree Exactly.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 18:15

So we have to look on the innovation now to convert these particular foods from being wasted to a form that it can be utilized later on. So we're getting the nutrition from it, we are generating revenue from it, we're making those commodities available and we're making it accessible outside of the necessary seasons.

Natasha Levy: 18:28

But, cliff, I'm going to play devil's advocate with you right now. I mean, to me this feels like a very top level, high-level conversation. Do you think that the average person out there really appreciates the concept of food security and food insecurity?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 18:46

I think they appreciate the concept when it affects them. Okay, when it hits the bottom line, when they head to the market and a pound of yam is four or five hundred dollars per pound, when they head to the market and they can't get a hand of green bananas, then they start asking us and say, boy, a thing's just there. It's not just there, it's not properly priced, it's not affordable. So it no means that your level of food security has dropped significantly, because if you can't afford it, how are you going to consume it? And I don't think, as a country, we look on it in a broad base in terms of food security.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 19:29

We normally look at our terms of food security in terms of okay, okay, it's available, it's not available, it's available, it's not available. But we do not normally look at the quality of the food. We really look at the quality of the food, we really look on the affordability until it hits us. And there have been so many discussions and when you look at a lot of countries that have very robust food security programs, you recognize I'm not advocating for it, but you recognize that a lot of the agri-production systems are subsidized by the government. It's not something I'm advocating for. But at the end of the day the policy directive within the government offset and supports some of those costs, so it allows for those food to be always available. They're always affordable and they're normally of very good quality.

Natasha Levy: 20:16

Can you think of one or two countries where they have a really robust food security policy?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 20:23

We can look on the US. The US has a very robust food security policy and it starts from the US. The US has a very robust food security policy and it starts from the ground level up. You're looking on investments in agriculture, looking at making lands available dedicated for agri-production. You're looking on the concessions for accessing farm equipment and machinery. There are a lot of concessions there.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 20:42

You look on access to loans. You know how easy to access a loan for persons who want to go into agri-production. You see, agriculture is an investment. You know it's a business, but it's also critical to the sustenance and the growth of any economy. So we have to treat it as an essential service and for essential services you prioritize it. So if we're prioritizing, at this particular point, you can go to any bank and get a loan for a car. You can't eat a car. You're serving a company.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 21:14

But at the end of the day, to access loans for agriculture is a lot more restrictive because of the unpredictability within the agri-production system. So there are a number of systems you have to look into. The US has a very, very good model in terms of how they ensure the production in their space. The Dominican Republic has a very good model in terms of how they ensure the production in their space. The Dominican Republic has a very good model as well, and they are very close to Jamaica, and one of the reasons why you're seeing such high-level production in India and such high levels of exports of finished products in India and I think, if I remember myself right, even more JP Jamaica producers is producing a lot of their bananas and their banana chips out of the Dominican Republic as well. So we have to look on those models that really support both the production capacity and export capabilities. That really anchors and covers aspects of food availability.

Natasha Levy: 22:00

So I don't know if this is an unfair question, but when you look at Jamaica versus those two countries that you have, how would you rank us? Are we there? Are we not there? Is there a food security index?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 22:17

Not necessarily a food security index, but you can look on our production as a country and our imports. Let's take our imports, for example. In 2022, we import over a billion US dollars worth of food, so you're looking at an import bill overall of $7.8, $7.9 billion, and most of it being petroleum. Our vehicles eat a lot, they drink a lot, so we import. Petroleum is one of the major imports for the country, but you have one seventh of an import bill being food, and one of the things we need to look at as well.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 22:51

We and let's dissect the food we consume right From a more realistic perspective we eat a lot of saltfish, which is not produced in Jamaica. We eat a lot of salt macaroni in Rondon, which is not produced in Jamaica. We eat a lot of rice and peas. We import almost 90% of our red beans from South America, so you're seeing more and more that a number of the foods that we consume we pride ourselves in being one of the best oxtail it's not a commodity that is produced within our particular space. A lot of the food that we consume on a daily basis is imported.

Natasha Levy: 23:29

And what you're saying is that a measure of a solid food security plan is that perhaps about 60% of what you're consuming?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 23:37

should be produced locally.

Natasha Levy: 23:40

So you're saying we're not at that 60% threshold, we're not there.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 23:43

We import rice, which we eat every single day. We import flour, which used to make all of our breads. We import red pea which we use to make the rice and peas. In some instances we're importing the coconut milk that we use to make the rice and peas. So if you look on our plates, you'll recognize that a lot of what we're consuming on a daily basis, our products, are imported. So we are not there in terms of being secure. We have a robust program to support and offset the importation of critical food services. So we can say, yeah, we are secure, we're not sour, we can't afford food, but we are not producing enough to say that, hey, we are food secure and we control are food secure and we control our food inputs. We have to have some control over our food inputs. Even the very chick feed, chicken feed and pig feed that we import, that we are using to grow animals. We import the corn. We're not growing the corn to make the feed. Let's go back to the stakeholders.

Natasha Levy: 24:46

Let's go back to the stakeholders. Let's go back to the stakeholders Because when I asked you about how do we plan for food security, you said you know it's very important to get the stakeholders aligned.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 24:55

Yes.

Natasha Levy: 24:56

Who are the stakeholders? Who are we talking about?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 24:58

You're looking on your major producers in the agricultural space. You're looking at the suppliers of your different agrochemicals, your animal feeds. You're looking on the banking sector that provides financing and you're looking at the policy from the government itself as well as a supportive system in terms of extension services, in terms of technical services and support that the farmers do need, Because our farmers do need technical support at all aspects. So those are some of the major stakeholders that we have to look. We have to have those consistent engagement with.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 25:28

You have to look on, also engage, the persons who are doing the middlemen, who are dealing with the distribution and collection and distribution of agri-products. How can you negotiate better purchase prices from the farmers and better rate to sell it to the retailers, being a supermarket and so forth, so that the food can be affordable and accessible? Because a lot of times, the farmers are producing the commodities at a low cost, but by the time it gets to you as a consumer through the retailer, you're paying four and five times as much. So, even though it is affordable in the initial production, by the time it gets to you it's no longer affordable. So you become insecure.

Natasha Levy: 26:08

What's my role in this whole? Thing?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 26:11

Your role in this entire thing, as an individual within a system, is to better understand, you know how you can improve your level of food security. What can you do to contribute to the entire process? What can you produce at home? What value can you add to what you're producing at home? And these are some of the things we have to have discussions on, and one of the programs I saw the Ministry of Agriculture and the Forage Clubs launched I think it was about four or five years ago was this Backyard Garden Program, Because when you are producing your lettuce in your pot or your cabbage in the pot or your kalaulu, you're reducing the burden, you know, in terms of that level of availability, because what you would not consume goes elsewhere, to someone else who do not have the luxury of being able to produce that single kalaulu plant or that single lettuce.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 27:07

It sounds a bit trivial, but if you can imagine a population of over 2.7 million persons and in our household we are able to, I think we have about 100,000, 200,000 households if we are able to produce even one commodity that we consume on a regular basis, then we're increasing the availability of foods consistently. We also have to look on what our roles and our responsibilities are in terms of how we engage with the different commodities that we're consuming. When you purchase 10 pounds of yams and you throw away 5 pounds of that yam, it's not benefiting anybody, because what your 5 pounds? That's not available, which means you're going to drive the affordability up a bit later on. So we have to be a bit more responsive in terms of what we engage with food and what we do in terms of how we produce the level of wastage of food across the board as well. These are also very critical. And then we also have to ask questions when we go to the supermarket, do I buy imported or local?

Natasha Levy: 28:09

Something as simple as that.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 28:10

Something as simple as that, because the more local commodity you consume, it indicates that there's a greater market for local commodities and more persons will produce it. But if my commodity is not being sold, I'm not going to grow it.

Natasha Levy: 28:24

I think one of the things that really struck me was when you said the waste that occurs at a particular time of the year with certain crops. There must be a way that we can, you know, move the mangoes from X over to Y, or find a way to make use of the excess tomatoes that are there. To make use of the excess tomatoes that are there. So there's a role for the creation of value-added services and products as well.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 28:50

Most definitely when you go to the supermarket and you're looking at a pasta sauce, you see all of these canned sauces from all over the world but yet we're dumping so many tomatoes. That's shocking. We have to get to the mindset of innovation, product innovation, converting a product from one farm to another. We do large volumes of sauces. When you look in the agricultural space and the exports from food-based products, you'll see jams, jellies and sauces being at the top. You can't find a million pepper sauces for Jamaica. You can't find thousands of different jerk sauces and seasonings. Because those commodities we export those extensively.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 29:27

So we have to look in terms of why are we importing mango puree when we're dumping so much mangoes? How do we put that policy framework in place to support institutions like a JBDC or a Satellite Research Council or a ELM or a CASE or in agri-production or a RADA, that is, in agri-production, for them to produce their mango puree during this time of the year? How do we produce our tomato juices or tomato paste at these facilities that there have been so much investments in as public or private agri-processing facilities to allow for that conversion? We need to have more serious conversations and pump resources, not just financial but in terms of technical and human resources in the innovation space. So we have a consistent supply of these commodities, in the same way that we did with Ackers, when we were able to carry Ackers and export Ackers and have Ackers available right through the entire year because you can pick a can off the shelf.

Natasha Levy: 30:25

So, cliff, as we bring the podcast to a close and we've been talking about food security what are three things you think we could be doing better, as an individual or as a country?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 30:41

As a country, we can do far better than water catchment systems.

Natasha Levy: 30:46

Water catchment.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 30:48

The consistent cry of farmers that are here to the basis of we do not have water, we have a drought, should not exist at this particular point. There are so many water catchment systems that can be built on farms. They can have communal water catchment systems that can service a network of farmers. So water catchment systems, water retention systems, is one thing you can really look into, because if you have water, you can produce whatever, drought or not. We have to look also in terms of the support systems to drive investments in agriculture, in that we treat agriculture as a business and not just in terms of hey, guess what, this is somebody who's just going to grow something. We'll take it from a business perspective what are your input costs? What are your production targets? What is the potential revenue In order to drive that level of production?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 31:37

In Jamaica, agriculture has to be seen as an investment opportunity or a business to get persons who are really serious into that space.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 31:44

And just in a similar way, you have lots of persons pumping billions of dollars into housing and construction.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 31:51

You need to have that in terms of agriculture as well. So water is one thing we can really address easily. We can address the investment and the business aspect and as individuals we can be a bit more responsive in terms of how we interact with food and how we pretty much interact with the food that we are producing, the food that we are consuming here in Jamaica. And when you look on the macroeconomic side of things, you know, sometimes you just have to go and eat local. You know, generate a different appetite for what you have available in a conscious space, because you're going to apply a bit of pressure on the government itself or different entities to always supply the foreign-produced products to meet your appetite or your taste. But in a sense, so try and develop an appetite for taste for local commodities and so we can drive and support the local agriculture sector to boost that level of food security, so we can have food that is constantly available throughout the economy and that's affordable and it's of high quality.

Natasha Levy: 32:52

So, cliff, when we talk about how we can become more food secure, you mentioned a few factors a while ago, but where does training fall into all of this? Or does training fall into this?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 33:04

You know that's a critical point because at the end of the day, everything is going to be based back on the human capacity and capital. There has to be the know-how and that is where the training capacity in terms of good agricultural practices and agri-production, your plant breeding programs, for example, that is going to counter your harsh droughts or your heavy flooding and so forth that's where all that is going to come in. So training plays a major role and even linking that again to the water harvesting systems, persons need to have the capabilities and know how to do your reservoirs or your ponds, how to get your engineers fully involved, allow for the levels to be correct for the flow of the water, ensure there's a consistent supply. So training plays a major role. That level of technical skills and knowledge and know-how is critical. So there is no.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 33:58

It is one of the most important components to really add, one of the most important components in bringing on all the different experts in different spaces to make agriculture a real business and to really drive that and guide your food safety as well as the food security programs and I keep mentioning food safety because you're not going to have one without the other.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 34:16

So I know you were speaking about security more. You can't have one without the other because, again, it's linked to the quality of your food. So there are a number of training programs I know that exist in Jamaica. There are programs looking at agribusiness as well, even have masters in agripreneurship programs here in Jamaica, which means that there's been a heavy focus on trying to anchor that component and build technical skillsets. We just need now to apply that on a broader basis and bring it to the level where we can translate that information and our technical skills and package it in such a way that our farmers can understand, package it in such a way that our investors can understand and can interact with it. So we are not speaking above their heads and they have no idea of what we're actually seeing at the end of the day. So the technical capabilities, the human capacity, is one of the major driving forces in how robust your food security program is in any particular country.

Natasha Levy: 35:13

I got it, I understand. Is there somewhere that we could go to, a website or resources that we could go to to find out more about food security?

Dr. Cliff Riley: 35:23

Starting has quite a bit of information, especially when you're looking on the agri-production Starting on the Ministry of Agriculture a lot of information on the agri-production and the exports and the imports, so there's quite a bit of know-how there. If you go to the International Trade Centre website, you'll also find quite a bit of information on the food safety and food security thrust through the entire CARICOM region and why CARICOM is such a high interest entity. And if you go to the World Health Organization website you get a good idea of the quality of the foods that are being produced in the region and how those impact on overall health, especially for kids and elderly.

Natasha Levy: 36:01

Got it. Well, I'm definitely going to go and re-look at all of those mangoes that have fallen from the mango tree and see I won't promise you I'm going to be making any jam, but I'll see what I can do with it and I'm definitely going to look to see what space I have to maybe, you know plant some kalalo in my backyard. So on that note, cliff, thank you so much for helping to demystify, for helping to break down this concept of food security. I definitely learned a lot. You really brought it home for me in terms of making me understand what it is, what it isn't, and having me really think about how I approach food and the types of foods that I consume in my own home. So thank you very much. It has been a great conversation.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 36:52

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure and I really enjoyed the conversation.

Natasha Levy: 36:56

Awesome, great. Thank you so much.

Dr. Cliff Riley: 36:58

You're most welcome.

Natasha Levy: 36:59

Thanks for listening to this podcast of we Can Solve this a Solution Space podcast. Follow us on socials at we Can Solve this podcast. Like. Follow subscribe. We Can Solve this sharing ideas to help build thriving communities wherever you are. Thank you.